Mohammed Hayatu-Deen, renowned economist and former Chairman/CEO of FSB International Bank PLC and chieftain of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP), recently re-joined the party to play a more active role towards 2023. In this interview monitored on Arise TV, he assesses the state of the nation, a spate of insecurity, revealing why he re-joined the PDP and his political ambition. INIOBONG IWOK brings excerpts:
The major challenges facing Nigeria now is leadership; how can we solve that and what kind of leaders should Nigeria have in 2023?
So, the iconic figure Chinua Achebe I think was right. He was right then and right now; that there is a problem with leadership and there has been in this country.
Leadership means different things to different people and the subject is as old as time itself. From the time a child is born, his desire for needs and want immediately manifests; so, overtime, people grow from villages to town, to country and essentially what people want is to have a purpose in life to make sure that all their needs, desire, and purpose is fully satisfied, and in so doing, leadership, followers are then able to meet their mutual expectations and desires.
A leader is someone who has the capacity to influence the outcome of events for the general good. And in that sense, therefore, leaders are needed by society and leaders need followers. The whole essence of leaders is for people or leaders to actually organise societies in order to meet the needs and desires of the general population for public good and service.
There are different kinds of leaders; typical scholars tend to break into two major types. One is transactional leadership; transactional leadership is akin to people who go to the marketplace between a merchant and a customer to exchange goods and services and at the end of that transaction everybody goes his or her own way. So, it is transactional, there is no binding glue that brings the parties together into a long-term relationship.
Similarly, a transactional leader is someone who can trade fertilizer subsidies for votes, or jobs for votes, and in that case, the transactional leader is someone who is unable to attempt the long-term needs of the followers.
The transformational leader on the other has a very deep and abiding emotional connection with the followers, in such a way he is able to tap into their emotions, their wants, and their needs in order to care for them and to look after them and to have a binding glue between the two. And over the long term is able to carry the followers onboard and transform their lives and transform their needs and put them in a much better place than when he came into office.
Those are the two basic differences between a transaction leader and a transformational leader.
Are you planning to throw your hat in the ring and contest for the presidency?
I guess when I actually went to Maiduguri and register with the PDP I had made it clear that I was actually registering as a member, the idea was to firstly go in as a member; go round my constituency around the North-East zone, around the country, and make a careful evaluation as to the forces that are currently shaping the political outcome. I have made no decision if I am going into an elective office or not.
What is your take on zoning? There have been agitations across the country among regional groups. They say the PDP would not win the election if it chooses a Northerner as its candidate. What is your take?
My understanding going back in time in history is that back in the 1990’s Nigeria had a major flashpoint; we were in serious crisis and the major parties at the time decided that they would zone the presidency to the southern part of Nigeria in order to calm tempers and bring about peace and stability in Nigeria. That is number one. Number two; this decision was probably taken by a few individuals around the coffee table.
The third point is the fact that since then this country has actually evolved, we are almost getting to 25 years of democratic rule in Nigeria; we have come a long way. We practise constitutional democracy in Nigeria under this form of government, people are free and the constitution clearly prescribes it, so does the electoral law for any Nigerian to vie for any office of his choice, provided he or she is eligible. And for any Nigerian to vote for anybody he wants.
And the procedure for winning and losing elections is clearly prescribed both in the constitution and the electoral law, where people are aggrieved there is judiciary action that can be taken so that their grievance can be legitimately attended to. I personally believe that whereas in this country today we are facing a major crisis as a country and the economy of the country is under significant stress at this time and because of that and the multiplicity of other issues, such as the carnage and blood bath that are taking place; I think it is important for us to lift our sight and not look through the lenses of history but look to the future to do what is right for this country.
This country needs very capable managers, who are able to attend to the everyday needs, who are able to deal with the structural problem facing this country, and able to reposition this country to ensure that we are able to play in the global market and put Nigeria in the map socially, economically, and also in the field of international relations. I think it is terribly important for such a large country that has invested a lot of resources to reclaim its position on the world map.
Your sibling was a victim; how, in your opinion do you think Nigeria should deal with the rising spate of insecurity and terrorism in the country?
That is a very heavy issue because it has affected me personally, so it has affected millions of other lives. It is important to understand the root cause of this problem. The root cause is that for a long time the Nigerian public had been neglected and their major basic need of lives such as; access to the basic needs of life such as basic health care, education, putting food on the table, sleeping at peace on their home and on the street, meeting all other necessities of life, such right to life and freedom had been seriously curtailed because of the way the country has been managed over an extended period of time. So, what has happened is that chickens have come home to roost.
Many people have been caught in the poverty trap. Almost 9 million people live below the poverty line of $367 per year per person which is miserable. So, when you take over a large country with a large population like India as the poverty capital of the world that is a significant problem.
Therefore, if people are uncared for, they are unable to eat, they are unable to get jobs, naturally, they then lose confidence in the country and its leadership; what you are seeing playing out today is that people have decided to take the law into their hands is very easy to accumulate arms and ammunition and then go after the elite and if they can’t find them they attack people in the rural areas to rob them on their lives and belongings. That is keeping in mind that there has been a huge population explosion in this country.
In 1960, the population was lower than 40 million; in 1998, it was about 103 million, today it is about 200 million. So, our inability to actually grow the economy by a growth rate of 15 or 10 percent per annum over a sustained amount of time has contributed to a lot of frustration. You have a huge youth bulge of unemployed people or people who are highly educated but could not find a job. Naturally, therefore, it is no surprise that you see terrorism rise exponentially. The solution is not an easy one, number one because, I believe that the Armed forces, the police are overstressed- that is not their traditional duty; the Armed forces are supposed to protect the country against external attacks, but today they find themselves all over the map trying to bring peace internally to the country.
It is not conventional warfare where the enemies are well defined and the boundaries are well defined. The second issue is, not only are they over-stressed, I believe that there is a shortage of manpower, shortage of equipment, and other related intelligence assets. I would say they are doing well, but doing well is not enough given the rate at which the rate of the problem of terrorism and banditry is actually escalating. It requires very careful thinking from those who are in charge of our national security to take all those measures that are required.
Number one; to actually deal with the current problems, try to temper them down as much as possible. Number two, it is an economic issue, to do everything we can do within our power to rebuild the foundation of our economy, grow output, grow jobs, give people confidence, and give them open access to all kinds of opportunities in this country so that they would be encouraged to get out this very ugly nasty trait to bring them to the mainstream economy, but it is a very, very tall order at this point in time and it requires a middle term plan; it is not like I said earlier on, a 100-meter dash but a marathon.
In 2015, you were a member of President Muhammadu Buhari’s transition council; in fact, you were chairman of the transition committee for the economy. You also served as chairman of the Nigeria Economy Summit Group. One would have thought you would join the APC. Is your decision to join the PDP an indication of Buhari’s administration’s rejection of your committee’s recommendation or…?
I have profound respect and I revered the person of President Muhammadu Buhari because I have known him for a long time as a young military head of state in his 40’s, someone who had a lot of discipline and love for this country deeply in his heart.
Secondly, I have had a relationship especially with Mamman Daura for more than 40 years; he is someone for who I have tremendous admiration and respect. Thirdly, it is not because of the party affiliation that I was called to serve as chairman of the committee of the economy on the transition programme of the president-elect, it was mainly because they felt I have something to offer in terms of providing input in developing that particular blueprint. We spent over three months providing that robust document that would stand the test of time. My relationship with the government has purely been on private capacity as someone who has his own independent agency that wants to serve his country to the best of his ability. But I dare say that I also served other presidents before him. Now, to the choice, why did I join politics? I did so because I truly and sincerely feel that it is important for all manner of people who are well-meaning, particularly people who have skills and experience, and experience in other vocations in life to make a contribution in our nation. We are facing a situation that has not been seen in the history of this country; I think sitting on the sideline and complaining does not do anyone any good.
I would encourage other corporate leaders, other professionals, whether lawyers, medical doctors, and civil society to also take a deep interest in the political process of the country, if we do so, we can affect and change the politics of this country for good. So that Nigerians would truly get the kind of leaders they desire, leaders that are highly enlightened, have a world view and know the forces that are shaping the globe, and understand what it takes to run the country and make it a success.
As to why I joined the PDP? I joined because; I am entitled as a citizen to express my view to how I want it, to any shape I want it; to any political party of my choice. Why the PDP? I have had time to reflect on it, it was not an easy decision for me, especially to even go into politics in the first place. I decided to do it because looking back, especially between 2003, 2007, and 2008, even if you did not go back to 2009, we have seen major reforms take place in this country through an orderly programme of privatisation and commercialisation; a lot of public assets have been turned over to the private sector and consequently, our national output on employment has improved considerably.
We have posted during this period of twelve years, between 2003 and 2015 average economic growth rate of about six percent per annum which is stunning even though some people may say a lot of it is driven by high oil prices.
We have seen other reforms considering Nigeria’s debt profile, and we know President Obasanjo did a lot in mobilising other world leaders in order to reduce Nigeria’s public debt considerably and we ended up coming up with a robust and lean balance sheet. There are other reforms that have taken place, in regard to unleashing liberation that brought about the liberation of a number of industries in telecom and oil and gas, etc. I believe even though this process was interrupted back in the 2000’s we can return to those same themes and actually take the bull by the horns and rebuild our economy and generate prosperity for the Nigerian people and make this a much better place to work and live in.
Are you considering running for president, or is there another leadership role you are looking for?
Let me say that people can join political parties for a number of reasons; I joined because I am full of trepidation about where this country is headed, largely informed by the extreme poverty in the land, the violence and the carnage taking place. And it does seem to me that people have to do their civic duty to ensure if we ever fail; it is not that we have not tried. So, I am willing to give every atom of my energy and spirit to ensure that Nigeria doesn’t only survive but prosper.
Number two, I am not joining the PDP just because it is fun to join them, I want to join because I want to be a very active and energetic member of the PDP. I want to join them because I believe I have so much to offer based on my skills, my experience, and the networks of relationships that I have garnered over the years both within and outside the country. The large fraternity of people I know across the country regardless of party affiliation. I am joining them because I feel I can make a major constructive contribution toward the development of a party platform that is robust and focused on the long term and truly wants to bring development to the people of the country. I am joining the party because I believe when you are outside; your capacity to influence things is limited compared to when you have a seat on the top. And it is entirely possible to build a critical mass of people who think alike, act alike, share the same values in directing the affairs of the party in such a way that it can govern effectively in the interest of the county. So, it is not about titles but about exercising influence.
What is your take on the Nigerian economy, and would you say that followership is part of Nigeria’s problem?
My relationship with the President and Alhaji Mamman Daura are purely personal relationships, especially with Mamman Daura that was developed over a long period of time. I think it would be reckless, if not irresponsible for me to deny relationships that I have had with people with whom I actually enjoyed excellent personal relationships. So, that is one. Secondly, if I am in PDP and establish relationships, you actually don’t believe me to deny those relationships in the fullness of time if anything happens. The most important thing is people nurture relationships and build them and they cherish them, and they go beyond officialdom in terms of professional relationships with people. These are personal relationships that have nurtured me considerably for a period of forty years.
The second point in relation to the economy, clearly the economy is not in a good place. Number one, there are number of indices, whether you are looking at the human development index or the competitive index where Nigeria is actually doing very badly and has been doing badly for a considerable period of time, there is no denying whatever the evidence is there for everybody to see.
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Secondly, in terms of micro-economy policy, what I would love to see is a very sound and balanced micro-economy policy where monetary policy and fiscal policy are like Siamese twins, they shake hands, and you are not able to create a stable environment that is conducive for savings, investment, a large amount of output, employment, low inflation and enhance the quality of lives for Nigerians. Clearly, there are structural problems with the micro-economy, link to that if you now unbundle these into specific indices, the cost of government operation is very, very high and much of our revenue is consumed by the cost of public administration leaving few for development.
The debt service of the country is extremely high and when you compare revenue to debt service ratio we really should not be there at all. The debt to GDP ratio where you may say is still within the sustainable level we need to watch our debt carefully and what we are contracting that debt for. So, those kinds of issues pertaining to the economy are definitely problematic. Now, when you go beyond the immediate problem in terms of delivering public goods, there I think you have a monumental problem. The ability of public institutions over local government level, the state and federal level to deliver public goods and services to the public have been severely constrained and this has given rise to the kind of problem we are talking about earlier on.
The conflict that is consuming this country is obviously taking a lot of our financial and economic resources, it is necessary but the fact of the matter is that; it then leaves a lot on the table for you to be able to turn this into developmental projects.
Having said all of this, it is important to put into the contest the following issues; one, we know that this administration had put a lot of attention into the development of infrastructure, it has put a lot of resources into the agriculture sector; it has, after more than two decades, broken the jinx and got the petroleum Industry Act signed and sealed and delivered. The response to the pandemic has been commendable, just like we did to Ebola; we have received a commendation from world leaders in regard to that. In regard to economic growth, we do know we came out looking better. There are a number of other countries that are still posing negative growth on account of the Coronavirus pandemic, we are now in some positive territory because last year we posted about four percent year on year.
So, the same total of it when you put together is the fact that while there is progress in certain areas there are lots more problems that are deep and structural problems confronting this country that would keep the next administration, whoever they are, is going to be very busy in pulling this country from the bricks.
A leader is like a shepherd, there are many attributes. Remember earlier on we were talking about transformational leadership, a great leader who wants to write his name for history first and foremost needs to be the chief moral of his country. Such a leader is one whom the house would protect, would revere, celebrate, secure, and would also give him custody of our collective wellbeing. Such a person must take this responsibility very seriously and therefore, he should be guided by certain attributes such as integrity, honour, and decency and become a beacon of hope for the country.
The second attribute of a good leader has to do with building a deep emotional connection with the followers in such a way that he is clearly able to understand, even ahead of the followers what their needs and wants are and he would then give concrete expression to this need and desire through a very doable energetic programmes of actions and is able to meet their desires. And in so doing, he would be able to lift the motivation and morality between himself and the followers. This is extremely important; is nothing different from the way the cardinal relates with his congregation and the Imam relates with his Muslim members and that kind of deep connection is important.
You look at history, Nelson Mandela is another one who came into office, while South Africans were fearful if they were going to be slaughtered or ejected from their country, but Mandela through his masterstroke, was able to build a rainbow coalition and was able to bring all South Africans under one roof.
The third major issue is that a leader must raise other leaders among his followers, through the power of his own personal example, he is able to build a critical mass of people who totally blow away by the kind of leadership that he is amplifying and in so doing they want to actually emulate and copy him.
